My 2005 sti

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

Yeh Seriously, the other option, if you go over 500 is to reverse it to where the oil change is being done .....

PMSL

Originally Posted by worzel

You don't want to glaze the bores mate

+ 1 if you take it to easy you will run the risk of this! Seriously get your bloody foot down. {On a private road of course}

[SUBARMAN]

Looking fabbo that man!!

[Hongkongfooi]

Tfs says 500 miles under 3k revs, then oil change, then 250 miles to 3.5k revs, then another 250 up to 4k revs. Then remap.....hammer down then!

[old93ra]

Originally Posted by Nige

+ 1 if you take it to easy you will run the risk of this! Seriously get your bloody foot down. {On a private road of course}

There seems to be a lot of different advice as to running in but at some point early on you will need to put the trotter down to bed the rings in.

To do this requires several brief applications of full throttle in a high gear to generate high cylinder pressures and force the rings against the bore walls. But thats just my opinion.......

[C. J.]

.5 of a bar for the first 250 miles & 1 bar there after in short bursts now and again or as said your glaze it

Always differs from different builders. As mentiond above. quote Old93RA To do this requires several brief applications of full throttle in a high gear to generate high cylinder pressures and force the rings against the bore walls.

[Hongkongfooi]

I'm only doing what i'm told peeps.....anyway I believe Simon put a 4k rev limit on the base map anyway!

[Legacydan]

Short shift & use the gearbox & engine to brake, that will help the rings bed into the bores.

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by Legacydan

Short shift & use the gearbox & engine to brake, that will help the rings bed into the bores.

Don't worry dan I have been, thanks

[SpecB]

That's what I did with mine lot's of engine braking!

[Legacydan]

Originally Posted by Hongkongfooi

Don't worry dan I have been, thanks

Best way Tim

You must nearly be there on the running in by now?

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by Legacydan

Best way Tim

You must nearly be there on the running in by now?

470 miles now and oil change Friday

[Bod]

Tell you what Tim do it properly and as Stewart suggested it his build not every not all these other engine builders on here.
he has quite a good record with engines

It's like everything on a forum. There are so many different ways of doing things. I followed what my engine builder said to the letter and would suggest that you do the same. It looks pretty much that is the case anyway.

Part of my running in was as much engine breaking as possible.

Nearly there though mate, so not too much more to worry about

[Anger]

I just drove to Cornwall one night and back... Then oil change and mapping

[Jolly Green Monster]

the main thing is engine braking.. the vaccum in the bore will pull the rings out and bed them better / quicker.

Simon

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by Nige

Always differs from different builders. As mentiond above. quote Old93RA To do this requires several brief applications of full throttle in a high gear to generate high cylinder pressures and force the rings against the bore walls.

will do the opposite..

high cylinder pressure will push the rings into the piston and cause blow by.

Simon

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

will do the opposite..

high cylinder pressure will push the rings into the piston and cause blow by.

Simon

Thanks Simon for helping with this....I am sticking with the engine builders guidelines! 31st cant come soon enough though

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by C. J.

.5 of a bar for the first 250 miles & 1 bar there after in short bursts now and again or as said your glaze it

imho it wont glaze the bores driving tims car at 2000rpm.. the fuelling is spot on and the engine sounds very good.. when I was there for pretty much initial start up.

1bar imho is too much on mineral oil.. not that iirc Tims is on mineral.. but just need to be careful as lots of people differ on opinion to running in and oil to use etc... also 1bar on a td05 16g is a lot different to 1bar on a gt35r etc.,. if it is mapped to that then that is different.. Tim's has been mapped with 0miles on it to low boost and checked the fuelling and timing is correct should he accidentally boost it but it should be kept at low boost, minimum boost possible.

if you needed 0.5bar or 1bar to run an engine in.. then I best go strap a turbo to my wifes Zafira as obviously with 80k miles on the clock it has never seen over 0bar as it is NA and clearly not run in.. there is a lot of stuff spouted and sometimes it is said in a way that makes sense but clearly when you look at it at face value is crap.

A lot of Evo engine builders say drive it on boost straight away and for as much as possible... errrmmm... then like the guy on mlr that lost an engine as he hadn't tightenned the oil cooler pipe.. had he run it in normally I suspect he would have saw the smoke rather than the oil gauge at 0.

Simon

4x leakdown test's all spot on. My car spent 1 hour being run in at various rpm inc a couple of runs to 9k. Advised by my engine builder Jimmy Skyers X Mclaren. Is he wrong? I hope not! Same with my bike engine's over many years & 6years of that racing {so they didnt have an easy life} None of them ever seen more than a couple of hours running in. Ive never had an engine fail on me YET {that Ive had built} fingers crossed. Not sure about the guy's on here & how many engine's they have had built the Evo must be getting on for my 10th/12th engine build now. I dont build engines for a living i just pick the best engine builder. Simon you map cars & Jimmy builds them I'm sure he would not have given me the wrong info As said above different builder's Will have different views on running in. My above builds had mineral oil in for a short period 1st followed by whatever oil i was using at the time. This is not a rant or a dig at anyone it's just my past experience.
PS if anyone is about the RYE area today pop in to JRM see my car fall off the RR again {not}
NIGE

[Whiteone]

What time is your car going on the rollers at JRM Nige?

This is only an approx time of 10am ish. Dave Rowe doing his thing.
Now watch after my above post the bloody thing will blow up. Only joking Jimmy

[Jolly Green Monster]

Problem is the oil system and bearing setup on a subaru engine is very different to an evo.

Simon

IMO I think the only way to run an engine in is by adhearing to the builders running in schedule Tim's obviously running in as he's been told which is the best thing....

[Jolly Green Monster]

I wrote a reply about nige's being run in on the dyno as safe and sensible if that were your chosen route to run it in hard but it looked like I was taking the pee what with recent events.

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

looked like I was taking the pee what with recent events.

Not at all highlights the difference in 'running in' procedures

Should always be done at builders discretion IMO... I'm sure you've seen more than most straight from build and I'm sure you've seen many different suggested running in procedures too.....

[C. J.]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

imho it wont glaze the bores driving tims car at 2000rpm.. the fuelling is spot on and the engine sounds very good.. when I was there for pretty much initial start up.

1bar imho is too much on mineral oil.. not that iirc Tims is on mineral.. but just need to be careful as lots of people differ on opinion to running in and oil to use etc... also 1bar on a td05 16g is a lot different to 1bar on a gt35r etc.,. if it is mapped to that then that is different.. Tim's has been mapped with 0miles on it to low boost and checked the fuelling and timing is correct should he accidentally boost it but it should be kept at low boost, minimum boost possible.

if you needed 0.5bar or 1bar to run an engine in.. then I best go strap a turbo to my wifes Zafira as obviously with 80k miles on the clock it has never seen over 0bar as it is NA and clearly not run in.. there is a lot of stuff spouted and sometimes it is said in a way that makes sense but clearly when you look at it at face value is crap.

A lot of Evo engine builders say drive it on boost straight away and for as much as possible... errrmmm... then like the guy on mlr that lost an engine as he hadn't tightenned the oil cooler pipe.. had he run it in normally I suspect he would have saw the smoke rather than the oil gauge at 0.

Simon

only what i was told to do
oil at 250 not being mineral oil . boost was on then straight off and only now and then . different engine builders , different set ups as long as it runs on the day and gives what is wanted who gives a **** !

[old93ra]

"high cylinder pressure will push the rings into the piston and cause blow by"

Simon can you explain why? As for the past 30 years I've understood it to be the complete opposite. I'm not saying run loads of boost
in fact the boost is immaterial higher cylinder pressure forces piston rings out not in. I'm confused......However Tims been instructed to run his engine in is what he should do....but on the technical side of this I'm interested as I shall soon be building up my 2.5 soon.

No I haven't built a Subaru engine but I have built numerous others, but all n/a engines. Thanks

Was also of the belief that high pressure passing the rings pulled them out

(note to Tim: If you feel your threads gone off topic or would like the running in talk to be moved to a seperate thread, just let us know It is a good topic though and many people have differing opinions so definately worth keeping the discussions going)

[Jolly Green Monster]

There are many opinions and we will never all agree.

I feel the rings are what need running in, the bearings should be correct clearance and are non contact. As long as fuelling is not rich or lean then the rings should bed in normal driving which should include engine braking.

Seens lots and one I actually liked was mineral oil, start it and set map up, drive at under 2000rpm to 3rd, engine brake to 1000rpm. Drive to 3000 and engine brake to 1000rpm, then 4000rpm, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000rpm with cool down time between to make sure oil temp not too high, then drop oil and fill with fully sync and strap to dyno and map to 600+. But importantly the map was monitored and altered through out.

Simon

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by old93ra

"high cylinder pressure will push the rings into the piston and cause blow by"

Simon can you explain why? As for the past 30 years I've understood it to be the complete opposite. I'm not saying run loads of boost
in fact the boost is immaterial higher cylinder pressure forces piston rings out not in. I'm confused......However Tims been instructed to run his engine in is what he should do....but on the technical side of this I'm interested as I shall soon be building up my 2.5 soon.

No I haven't built a Subaru engine but I have built numerous others, but all n/a engines. Thanks

My understanding is that the vaccum on overrun pulls the rings out against the bore wall, therefore by law of opposites I would expect boost to push them in.

Simon

Originally Posted by admin

(note to Tim: If you feel your threads gone off topic or would like the running in talk to be moved to a seperate thread, just let us know It is a good topic though and many people have differing opinions so definately worth keeping the discussions going)

I think thread like these are great, because they can go a long way to dispell the many myths and dangerous untruths that get banded about at times like this.

No-one has or would put anything in this thread maliciously, it just that there are too many theories and plans out there, it would be good for the people who KNOW to correct people.

In this instance, Tim is doing it as he was advised by Stewart & Simon. When I did mine, it was everythingh that Vince and Simon said, simple as.

Keep the information coming people

[old93ra]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

My understanding is that the vaccum on overrun pulls the rings out against the bore wall, therefore by law of opposites I would expect boost to push them in.

Simon

Really.......If that was the case then when you have boost you would have no compression..which equates to no power..I dont think so

Put it this way if you crank an engine over with say a 10:1cr (keeps it simple) at bdc the engine has drawn in air at atmospheric pressure (14.7psi) then go to tdc and the airs been compressed by 10:1 which equates to 147psi. If the rings did not expand to seal the gap then a compression test would reveal zilch or less puff than a sparrows fart. So rings expand under boost Simon. They have to and they dont need running in, any miniscule high spots off the bores would be gone in a few minutes. If your running at 3000rpm at say for 300 miles that took 3 hrs to do that means the engine has made about 544,000 revolutions: 180 minutes x 3000 revs. More than enough.

Top Ring

• The top ring, or compression ring, helps make piston rings work because during the combustion process, it doesn't allow it to lose any pressure. The compression ring maintains any pressure build-up as the piston in the engine makes its way to the top of the stroke. A mixture is ignited when the piston arrives at the top, and the pressure builds-up to bring the piston back down. The piston rings are able to control this pressure because the top ring acts as a barrier, and transfers any of the heat through the cylinder wall.

• 
  
  

The Second Ring

• The second ring, or secondary compression ring, is designed similarly to the top ring. The second ring allows hot gases to penetrate into the crank case oil through the cylinder wall. When this happens it is called blow-by, and it helps mix the oil with carbon particles. This increases the acid level and makes the oil hotter and the oxidation process faster. This causes a slowdown of the oil from lubricating, and prevents the carbon particles from wearing out the parts of the engine. The second ring is also known as the oil scraper ring, which effectively minimizes any oil from gathering between the compression ring and oil ring.

• 
  
  

The Oil Rings

• The oil rings works with the piston in the engine to lubricate the cylinder walls, pistons, rings and wrist pins without it getting into the combustion process. The oil rings help the thermal control because it cools the piston by directing oil straight into it.

[SpecB]

Extract from the Cosworth instructions for their 2.5's

Pdf file here

Before Starting
During the break-in process, we recommend using a high quality API SJ or newer mineral 20W-50 engine oil. We also recommend using a genuine Subaru oil filter. Do NOT use a synthetic or synthetic blend during the break-in process. Replace the oil immediately after the break-in procedure or 500 miles (whichever comes first). We also strongly recommend priming the engine’s oil system before starting. To do this, make sure there is no fuel or spark by disconnecting either the ECU or by removing the appropriate fuses and/or relays. Then crank the engine until there is oil pressure registering on an oil pressure gauge (you or your mechanic must install one). When first starting the engine, be sure to keep the engine speed above 2000rpm to ensure the tappet buckets and cam lobes have adequate oil.

Engine Break-in

It is critical that your Cosworth engine is not started with an excessively rich fuel mixture. An excessively rich mixture will wash away the oil in the cylinders and the rings can potentially never break-in causing excessive oil consumption, crankcase blow-by and lower power output. This damage is permanent.
If the engine will be broken in by driving the car, we recommend you keep the engine speed below 4000 rpm. Drive the vehicle at various loads, speeds, and throttle positions while keeping engine speeds below 4000 rpm for approximately 1000 miles or 1660 kilometers. The longer the engine is broken in, the better your results will be. If breaking your engine in on an engine dynamometer, follow the break in procedure detailed below. You can use the guideline for a chassis dynamometer as well, but load readings will differ. If using a chassis dynamometer make sure to keep water temperatures below 95 degrees Celsius and oil temperatures below 110 degrees Celsius.
• Run at 2000rpm @ 50-60 lbf-ft. load for 20 minutes
• Run at 3500rpm @ 90-100 lbf-ft. load for 20 minutes
• Run at 4250rpm @ 100-110 lbf-ft. load for 10 minutes
• Run at 4250rpm @ 125-135 lbf-ft. load for 5 minutes
• Run at 5500rpm @ 125-135 lbf-ft. load for 5 minutes
• Run at 5700 rpm @ WOT for 2 minutes (not to exceed 300 lbf-ft.)
During the final break-in stage, the boost should be limited so as not to exceed 350 lbf-ft. of torque.
Some initial ECU calibration activity may be required to complete break-in with proper air fuel ratios. The engine should be calibrated to achieve an air fuel ratio rich enough for the type of fuel you are using.
Consult with a professional tuner if you are unsure of an air fuel ratio the engine requires. Boost should be regulated so as not to exceed 300 lbf-ft. of torque during the break in process. Once ECU calibration is complete up to 7000rpm, the short block should be ready for a WOT, full power run throughout the entire range.

[Hongkongfooi]

Must find the restriction to get the most from the setup

[Jolly Green Monster]

I am sure it is that inner wing induction

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

I am sure it is that inner wing induction

do you think if I went rcm filter and perrin intake hose would sort it?

[Jolly Green Monster]

I think the issue is the filter and inductn kit pipe length.

The induction pipe was collapsing as the turbo was struggling to suck through the filter.

Just my thoughts after the event.

Simon

[Jolly Green Monster]

If you suck on a straw and put your finger over the end the straw collapses but the problem is with your finger not the straw.

[Granby]

Would of thought the filter was big enough as it didn't seem a restriction on mine

[Jolly Green Monster]

Smaller turbo and no vvt.

The filter kit is my best guess from how it behaved and inlet pipe was sucking shut

Simon

[Scooby_Greg]

Would be great to see a before and after with an RCM kit. Good luck Tim I hope you get it sorted

[Scott.T]

Go for th RCM Filter, u know you want too. It's one of m shopping list ites too.

And what Simon says makes alot of sense if you don't have a cheap ebay induction hose.

I've not seen your inner wing filter but some are quite small/narrow.

[SpecB]

I'd be tempted to agree - you could go for a cheaper option of a filter straight onto the intake pipe and try that - maybe even try borrowing an RCM kit or similar to see if it stops the pipe collapsing as they are easy enough to swap over?

[Anger]

Its why i changed from a CAIK to the biggest Rcm filter and trumpet, even the slightest block on it gave me running problems and it tried to suck the pipe closed and that was on the t

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by BlueBugEye

I'd be tempted to agree - you could go for a cheaper option of a filter straight onto the intake pipe and try that - maybe even try borrowing an RCM kit or similar to see if it stops the pipe collapsing as they are easy enough to swap over?

i was thinking that Nick....mmm need to find one to borrow

[Anger]

Can try mine... Bloody hard to squeeze into the inlet pipe tho

[Hongkongfooi]

Originally Posted by Anger

Can try mine... Bloody hard to squeeze into the inlet pipe tho

very kind james....the pipe has just been fingered by CJ so should be loose now

Originally Posted by Hongkongfooi

very kind james....the pipe has just been fingered by CJ so should be loose now

Steady it is Sunday you know