Ecu and Turbo

[mikey2]

With the ecu i have in the car, or rather the esl board remap, is it possible to run it with a td04 turbo? theres one going cheap on egay, i know its not gonna make as much as the 05 can, but to be honest, i am not gonna stretch the td05 anyway, i just want less lag!!

ta

[Scott.T]

No will cause boost control issues. Td04 is likely to be front entry rather then 90 degree unless off an early wrx wagon.

[mikey2]

the one i am looking at is an early one, i am running an evc 5 boost controller, its not done 'in house' by the ecu.

[Scott.T]

your lag could be due to a poorly set up boost controller.
Personally I would sell the boost controller ans use the much btter 3D boost controlof the OE ECU/ESL

[mikey2]

ok, but my original question still stands, will the ecu/esl cope with the td04 over the td05 with the evc controlling the boost??

[Scott.T]

if you carry on using the evc then the turbo swapp will be fine but you will need to adjust the evc to cater for the smaller turbo.
You will probably have to increase the duty cycle to maintainthe same level of boost.
The TD04 can run 1.2 midrange, dropping to around 0.9bar at the top end.

If you remove the evc the esl will have to be changed to run with the td04.

Do you know if the esl is a version 1 or version 2 (live mapping) board.

[mikey2]

cool, that was what i thought. I can adjust the gain on the evc to raise the boost no problem. I dont intend to take the EVC out, i think the only way i would do that is if i got a better one or a standalone, which is unlikely at the mo.

I dont know what the esl is, the chip has an fcd stuck to the top of it. I will get some pics of it when i can get it out, prob be tomorrow evening.

Ta

[RobEvo5]

Probably telling you how to 'suck eggs' but If your going to the trouble of putting on a TD04, could be worth thinking about a VF turbo. Still gives a good spool but will give better BHP.

It would be better than the TD05 but not as good as a TD04.

But can see your line of thinking as out of all the various scoobs and tuned scoobs I have had the best and most enjoyable daily driver has always been: as simply as a decat downpipe, stock exhaust or prodrive backbox, UK, with TD04 and TEk2 ECU. Might only be circa 250-270bhp but as a road car was by far the most enjoyable drive.

Only other car that was spot on was a 2.5 classic, top mount, running a 20g.

I have yet to drive one, but I reckon Subaru must have got it spot on with the 2.5 Hawkeye STI, and with a decat and remap reckon it must make for a very nice drive.

[mikey2]

i did think about the vf22, or even the 23, but i wasnt sure what they were like, and for what i got the td04 for, wouldnt even touch the vf turbos.
I know what you mean though, the white scoob of mine was running a td04, still made 310bhp and was really nice to drive. i dont want big power, i am not going over 300 anyway i wouldnt think with this turbo, its an older one, but i am not bothered, 280 is enough for a very quick car anyway.

i was gonna say something else, but i cant remember what now!! later maybe!!

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

if you carry on using the evc then the turbo swapp will be fine but you will need to adjust the evc to cater for the smaller turbo.
You will probably have to increase the duty cycle to maintainthe same level of boost.
The TD04 can run 1.2 midrange, dropping to around 0.9bar at the top end.

If you remove the evc the esl will have to be changed to run with the td04.

Do you know if the esl is a version 1 or version 2 (live mapping) board.

ignoring the fact the fuel and ignition will be totally wrong

Simon

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by mikey2

i did think about the vf22, or even the 23, but i wasnt sure what they were like, and for what i got the td04 for, wouldnt even touch the vf turbos.
I know what you mean though, the white scoob of mine was running a td04, still made 310bhp and was really nice to drive. i dont want big power, i am not going over 300 anyway i wouldnt think with this turbo, its an older one, but i am not bothered, 280 is enough for a very quick car anyway.

i was gonna say something else, but i cant remember what now!! later maybe!!

you won't make a genuine 310bhp on a td04.. sorry you either had a duff dyno run or the turbo was not a td04.

Is the esl you have a mappable board or just a generic map?

the td04 and a map to suit may well work well for you.

Simon

[mikey2]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

you won't make a genuine 310bhp on a td04.. sorry you either had a duff dyno run or the turbo was not a td04.

Is the esl you have a mappable board or just a generic map?

the td04 and a map to suit may well work well for you.

Simon

I had three runs that made the same, give or take a few bhp.

i am certain it was a td04H if that makes any difference.

I dont know about the board, its underneath an fcd as far as i can make out.
I spoke to you a couple of days ago about it, i will stick a pic up of it.

[Jolly Green Monster]

sorry wasn't a td04 or a crap dyno lol

oh yes.. unlikely to be a live mappable one then

so really no poiint fitting the smaller turbo without budgetting for getting it mapped.

Simon

[mikey2]

no point because.........??
what should i look for to see if its mappable?

[mikey2]

Sorry, lots of pics, wanted to get all the angles!! Isnt the IC or 1C a wagon ecu? which runs a td04 anyway??

[Jolly Green Monster]

Thats a standard ecu with what looks like a fuel cut defender

No chip, no esl.

[dynamix]

That doesnt look like an ESL board.

Looks more like a superchip

[mikey2]

you know, it really doesnt surprise me. it really doesnt. how can i check that that ecu is the 1c?
The guy i got this off has seriously lied to me about this car, i am tempted to just give it back. really irritating.

[Jolly Green Monster]

Not aware of a way to be sure

You could get it checked for safe running once sorted but really it is going to need a map of some sort to cover the turbo change unlesd like you say it is s wagon ecu already

Simon

[mikey2]

thats the thing, the 1c IS a wagon ecu, that i do know, but the cover could be off a 1c ecu, that 3ecu could be anything, thats my worry now. i know the wagons run a td04 anyway, so it might be safe, but i need to find a way to check the board and see if it is actually a 1c or not.

[dynamix]

As Simon says, I cant think of a way to check from the marking on the board. The case could be off anything and the board could be completely random.

[mikey2]

ok, then lets say for arguement sake the ecu is a 1C from a wagon, in that car, running a td05, what would be something to look out for? off the top of my head, its very laggy, no real boost until about 5k sometimes 5.5k, later gears its about 4 and a bit k, the exhaust is very poppy if i change before say 4k, its very farty, on the over run etc, when the car is coming on to boost, it rises quickly to about 0.6 then stays the same for about .5k then rises to 1 bar. i am kind of at a loss here, i might open the ecu up again and see about comparing numbers on the board, see if that gets me anywhere.
Although it wouldnt surprise me, as he has lied to me about a few things, it might be the case that the previous owner had removed the esl board.
How does the esl sit in the ecu, with that FCD as it is, would it even be possible to fit an esl in there??

Duncan, you said it might have something like a superchip, is that could be under the fcd??

thanks for the help on this, much appreciated.

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

ignoring the fact the fuel and ignition will be totally wrong

Simon

LOL yeh your right there.
Apologies the paragraphs in my post should of been read in isolation and were somewhat confusing i.e the TD04 can be used on a TD05 car if the boost set with the boost controller and the ECU is not relied on for boost control.

What I was trying to say about the TD04 boost levels were it's capabilities, and not suggesting it should be run like that without other ECU alteration..

[Scott.T]

P.S Defo a FCD type device and not an ESL board.
1st time I have seen an FCD/Superchip mounted like that too, although I have seen a few variations.
As you mentioned, it's a 1C is from a WRX Wagon of v.early vintage.
Standard boost on the TD04 would of been 10.4psi dropping to a mere 6.8psi at the top end.

The ESL solders to the 28 pin DIL postion that is just under the black box in your picture. There are 2 generations of ESL, the early chip-able variant that retailed for about £195 and can be bought for around £60-£100 2nd hand. And the Version 2 live mappable that were £295+VAT.

The J1 brown resitor (on the right of the vertical board in your picture) would also be cut or missing if it were running a map from the spare 28-pin DIL location.

Piccie of the Version 2 ESL board which is same fit but different component layout is on www.enduringsolutions.com

[Jolly Green Monster]

superchip is a loose term really. . as superchip have done lots of different variations from just a fcd to a full blown piggy back ecu which alters the inputs and outputs from and to the ecu to allow it to be tricked to run more boost and different fuelling and ignition but these have a number of wire connections and don't look like that.

It could however also be altering the speed input to the ecu and removing the speed limiter.. difficult to see where it is connected to.., but it just has 3 connections which makes it unlikely to be any of the above.. normally there is power and ground and then signal in and signal out on them.

But regardless it is not an ESL board.

Simon

[Scott.T]

Ithink it's n early superchip with the connector pin coming from the MAP sensor snapped on the back of the yellow connector and wired through the black box with the yellow and green wires.
Black and Red providing power.

Diggin through my archives, here's one I ripped out of a supposed standard ECU a few years back :


OE/STi Style Chip upgrade (one of my old Polar Performance productions)


ESL Version 1


ESL Version 2


where they fit....

[Jolly Green Monster]

I missed the black wire when I looked at the pic. Need my eyes tested

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

I missed the black wire when I looked at the pic. Need my eyes tested

Agree took me a while to spot too...must be our age creeping up on us...LOL...

[mikey2]

guys, do you have pics of the standard ecus?? doesnt matter if they are chipped or not, i want to try and ID mine from numbers on them, its the 3 chips on the right i am interested in, mainly the normal early wrx ecus and the 1c wagon ecu. would be muchly helpful.

ta

[Scott.T]

You will struggle to ID them even if various pictures were provided.
I probably opened 100's over the years from every model. there isn't a Pre96 ECU I havn't seen and and I've not been able to tell any difference.
I think the hardware pretty much stayed the same from 1993-1996, only the code/Map image loaded changed between each variant.

If you are intending to run the TD04, i would suggest you use this ECU and repair where the superchip has been fitted, and revert back to OE Boost control.
It should then boost to approx 11psi dropping to about 7psi at the top (it's mapped to 10.4psi dropping to 6.8psi).
If boost is unstable or much higher or lower then it may be a TD05 map in a 1C case.

Or just by a 1C, 3B, 4B, V9, V5 ECU cheap on ebay, which are all for TD04 equipped cars.

[mikey2]

i found a way of finding out, it would appear to deffo be a wagon ecu, the code on the sticker matches the code on the lid, so should be good!!!

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/general-tec...ml#post9705024

[Scott.T]

Good stuff....blimey I learnt something new about a 1993-1996 ECU.....

[mikey2]

tis good stuff!! the turbo is pretty much done now, it was the late post, started the job at about 430, didnt get it off till 7, was a right pain!!

[mikey2]

it all works which is nice, somehow i managed to undo the coolant cap, probably whilst leaning over it, cue plumes of steam as i drive down the road!!! ooops!