Engine options

[SpecB]

Hi guys,

As many of you know I am in need of a new engine, I have a couple of main options available to me either a 2.1 stroker (closed or open deck) or a forged 2.5 (possibly a Cosworth unit).

I will be using my existing 2002 WRX heads and cams (all be it fully refurbished) and adding a high pressure oil pump, new water pump, kevlar cam belt and new OE tensioner. I will also use an uprated head gasket (probably Cosworth) and 11 or 14mm Head studs.

Anybody got any experience of the 2.1 units - talking to Alyn at engine tuner he is (obviously) very much a 2.1 man and was explaining that they deliver the power more closely related to revs with the power/torque in line with revs and not running out of power at higher revs. Now I like revvy engines personally but would also like a healthy amount of torque and clearly less lag than I have now.

Chances are I will be sending my long engine off to a builder and having it reassembled as a refurbished long engine by them before refitting myself so I'll be asking for help/advise on this once I know the route I'm taking and in fact have the car back!

[Scott.T]

I was very much errring to get a 2.5 should mine ever go, but the 2.1 strokers are getting very good reviews.
Either Engine Tuners or Laterals.
Enginer Tuner do a drive in/out service but be prepared for additional costs.

Personally I would arrange getting a short motor built then get it fitted myself to cut down on costs, and also allow me to source/pick and choose what additions I want.

Very easy to get carried away when it's all in one persons hands and suggesting this that and the other over the phone.

[eureka]

fyi
my 2.5 comes with tensioners, idlers, cosworth belt, head studs and multi layer cosworth gaskets.

if its my 2.5 your mentioning above

thanks
steve

[Dave Beck]

Hello mate,

My engine let go on my WRX so i know the horrible feeling you have.

From my experience it all depends how quickly you want it and what money you want to spend.

I was looking at a 2.5 from David@API and also a stroker from Alan @ enginetuner.

Cost was a big thing for me due to wife being pregnant and paying for my wedding.

I think the lump from david was 2200 and about the same from alan. i can fit it myself so i knew i never had to worry about that cost.

Anyway i decided on the 2.5 from David but whilst i was saving i found a 2.5 on ScoobyNet. 2.0 CDB rebored to a 2.5 with all parts forged including heads etc(500bhp engine) the chap had it built by Chy@peninesubaru at a cost of around 4k i think. He had decided not to complete project. I managed to get it off him including a motec m800 ecu for 3k so got a bargain really.

I then had issues with water in oil and various problems during mapping including cambelt not timed correctly (came complete when i recieved so didnt check). after various calls to builder he told me to map it and if there is a promblem to send it back to him and he will investigate and honour his work if its his fault.

it took nearly 1.5 years to get it finally mapped and sorted with A LOT of grief. So buying 2nd hand is cheaper and often very good sometimes it pays to send the car off and get someone to fit it that way its down to them to fix their issues.

Sorry i know you asked about engines but thought i'd describe my route so maybe help you out in descision

Anyway my 2.5 is awesome i love it. it pull from anywhere across the rpm range. so much better than a 2.0.

If i was to do it again i think i would go 2.33 next time but these are obviously more money.

The 2.1 gets great reviews but imo the 2.5 is a great daily car

Great reply Dave.

I agree 100% about the 2.5 and what it brings and still very usable as a daily drive.

All of the other variants have their good points and are getting rave reviews across the forums. But I think as a safer option the 2.5 gives you everything you really NEED in spades.

I do know that Steve (Eureka) has put together a really top spec 2.5 and if the right deal can be arranged you will not regret it.

[eureka]

thanks worzel

nice comments, agree with the 2.5 route as a daily driver if your chasing 600hp then get 2.35 deffo BUT a 600hp car is not a daily drive .
Running a nice well built 2.5 at a safe 500 is an every day drive,500 is a quick car and requires a skilled pilot to use it to its potential.
how many of those big built fast road cars are actually driven at the peak power that a dyno graph shows, i know of a couple

if you want a 600hp mental quick car that wont break visit rcm its the only way and you will pay for it .
i was under the impression bluebugeye wanted a value for money good strong engine that will with the right turbo put you in front with the leaders,my engine is NOT a built at home in the garage engine, it was put togather by paul blamire (zen performance) one of the best engine builders around. this engine has only covered running in miles.
i would get the engine and heads fitted by a pro ,purely to get optimum timing set up
and peace of mind in knowing the car was fitted plumbed and primed properly before it was run
imho a 2.35 is an unnessesary build for a fast road car unless you are considering doing drag work and many hours of track time every year

anyway im getting carried away now so i'll shut up


styeve

[SpecB]

Cheers for the input guys, current plan is to get Steves 2.5 with his gearbox etc. I just need to decide what route to go with the heads...

Option 1 - get my V7 2.0 wrx heads refurbished (do they need work to make fit the 2.5?)
Option 2 - buy a second hand set of AVCS Sti heads (am I best with 2.0 or 2.5 versions?) and get a syvecs to run them?

Basically it comes down to if the 2.0 AVCS heads are a direct bolt on to the 2.5 block or do they need work to fit?

Cost wise option 2 is obviously more with the syvecs however the actual cost of the refurb or 2nd hand heads is basically the same, given that I'd need at least 1 ecutek remap at £200 or so the additional cost for the syvecs could well b e worth it. Would I need a running in map on Steve's engine if the heads are refurbished? Also anybody know how I can flush the oil from my turbo to get rid of any left over bits of engine?


I'm thinking of pulling the engine myself then sending the bits to a builder to get a long engine built for me to drop back in - any suggestions of who could do it reasonably locally for a reasonable price?

[eureka]

no you will not need a running in map its a fit and go

dismantle the compressor housing and clean out

best option with this engine is option 2 with any avcs heads
replace with syvecs straight away and save £200 on the remap of ecutek or open source

only local person i would use is smg

richard aka fiestaboy on sn is an ex technician at zen he will do the work at his place around m40 corridor somewhere

[Anger]

Built 2.5 with a MD321T makes for a perfect fast road/ track day car if you me after the ring

[SpecB]

Anybody got contact info for SMG?

[eureka]

sorry fellas

did say !!!!

engine sold and being shipped to denmark

[SpecB]

Balls

[C. J.]

could still buy mine !

[Steve_PPP]

Originally Posted by BlueBugEye

Balls

Sums it up perfectly

Least it gives you more time to mull over the 2.1 vs 2.5 argument

[SpecB]

Hmmm - think I may be going the Williams route with the 2.5 built onto my refurbished heads ready to drop straight in then only a remap on the existing ecutek needed. Then I can go AVCS and Syvecs at a later date if I decide to or just uprate my turbo and injectors. I like the idea of the engine being fully built up for me with a warranty and all the timing etc. fully sorted. I'll be in touch with Steve (Eureka) about the box still or I still like the idea of the Scoobyclinc 5 speed kit as it's more in keeping with the original WRX spec.

[Dave Beck]

So many choices isnt there mate lol

Didnt think that 2.5 would hang around tbh

How much power are you aiming for (for now anyway)? I agree that the MD321T performs well on the 2.5's few members i know running them including someone with 500+ bhp

If you fancy a drive in service with warranty then Alan @ ET does that. I havent researched Zen etc

Have you got the budget for a brand new build? You will need a clutch and gearbox to handle as well including injectors so it all mounts up

Not sure what you have already as dont know your spec mate

[eureka]

wouldn't bother researching the zen route
mine was the last engine to be built by them as they has retired from any engine or mechanical work at all , purely mapping now !!!

gt30r on a 2.5 is a nice mix for a road car

[Dave Beck]

Argh yes, family time now.

Thinking of the 30 next but i just want to drive mine now lol

[SpecB]

Plan is to get the car running on the 2.5 for now with the pinks and APS SR40 I have on there now, going to go for a 'safe' map at around the power I already had then I'll do injectors, MD321T and gearbox at a later date.

O.K Current position is I'm going for a built 2.5 from Williams Motorsport, need to sort the exact spec. of some parts but looks like it will be as follows:

• Bottom End

• EJ257 Block (used)
• Crossdrilled Nitrided Crank (new)
• ACL Black Race bearings
• Forged Steel rods (Williams) with ARP bolts
• Wossner or Mahle pistons (depending on availability)
• High Pressure Oil Pump
• Kinetic Head Gaskets
• New water pump (Subaru)
• New baffled Sump
• Kevlar cambelt
• ARP Head studs (11mm)
• New oil modine cooler (Subaru)
• Heads

• JDM V7 Sti AVCS Heads and Cams
• Management

• Syvecs ECU (JGM)
• Turbo

• Reuse my APS SR40 (turbo dynamics rebuild to clean oil ways)
• Fueling (current setup reused)

• Perrin Parallel Fuel rails
• Walbro fuel pump
• Pink injectors
• Intake (current setup reused)

• Spec C Manifold (tumbler delete)
• K & N Panel filter
• Sti TMIC
• Samco Sport intake pipe

This should give a solid base to work from once the Gearbox is rebuilt!

Plan is to get a road map in the first instance as a running in map, then once the Gearbox is sorted see what I can get from the existing turbo and injectors, before uprating the injectors and turbo (possibly FMIC as well) next year sometime.

[C. J.]

For the money add the injectors

[Dave Beck]

Good start mate there

Im with Chris though, i would speak to Mark@Lateral who can adjust wrx injectors(blues) and make them flow 800cc for under £200. Defo worth it whilst it is apart.

On that ECU you could go for a 20% meth mix on one of the maps and get it easily enough at 400+ with similar tq. New box time though.....it never ends

[Hongkongfooi]

My tmic could be ready when your engine is....or you can fight steve ppp for it!
Just give me a bit of notice if you want it so I can book the front mount in.

[Steve_PPP]

Originally Posted by Hongkongfooi

My tmic could be ready when your engine is....or you can fight steve ppp for it!
Just give me a bit of notice if you want it so I can book the front mount in.

Nah, no competition there, Nick's already got an STI tmic!

[SpecB]

Originally Posted by Dave Beck

Good start mate there

Im with Chris though, i would speak to Mark@Lateral who can adjust wrx injectors(blues) and make them flow 800cc for under £200. Defo worth it whilst it is apart.

On that ECU you could go for a 20% meth mix on one of the maps and get it easily enough at 400+ with similar tq. New box time though.....it never ends

As I want to keep the OE box for now - well don't want to but funds won't stretch to a new one yet I'll keep the pinks for now as they will limit my power otherwise I'll only go and tell Simon to turn it up! Plus I gave my Blues to Charlie at Surrey RR - in exchange for a free run (what's the betting he's forgotten?)!

I'm unlikely to bother with a Meth Mix and am hoping to get somewhere near 450/450 on V-power once the gearbox is sorted and FMIC, injectors and turbo swapped.

[eureka]

fyi

gearbox is also sold

steve

[SpecB]

Cheers Steve - bloody pain as I now have sorted the funds! I'll be going for a uprated 5 speed I think

[Dave Beck]

Originally Posted by BlueBugEye

I'll keep the pinks for now as they will limit my power otherwise I'll only go and tell Simon to turn it up!

I know that feeling. I was due to have a E85 map with JGM on my WRX but it blew up just before.

[Dave Beck]

Just an option, sure price can come down

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/private-for-sale-general-17/832291-2-5cdb.html

[SpecB]

Looks like one hell of a block but a bit out of my budget even at £4K

[Skullfudge]

Didn't take long to shift your car in parts Steve !! Nice mind you it was all quality parts with very little use so all parts would have been an excellent buy.


Which motor? 2.0 / 2.1 /2.33 / 2.5, many threads like this on the net & many conflicting answers
Different views & comparisons can only be truly answered by driving all four engines in the preferred Classic or Newage.


Eureka made some good points.

Bhp variance are huge subject to a long list but when certain power levels are achieved "driver's confidence" becomes an important & often overlooked issue.
A driver will determine his driving ability/confidence, by reliving the fastest car he has ever driven, which is very often a car with average power to weight. I know of many guys with 350 - 450 who have never & will never drive anywhere near the machines limits.

I can only pass comment on my experiences but 400 bhp in a classic that has been built to cope with the power is an extremely fast machine when driven hard. 450 in the same car (on the limits) is a huge difference.

Some guys are prepared to pay & waste big sums just to be able to say they have big power.

Anyway, just a view on what I have seen & experienced.

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Skullfudge

Some guys are prepared to pay & waste big sums just to be able to say they have big power.

Couldn't agree more.

[Anger]

Why i got mine already built Clive and now to learn how to use it to its potential

[BIG"E"]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

Couldn't agree more.

100%


Its all well and good having the big numbers, but actually using all those horses is a different matter.


But there again it aint always what youve got its how you use it.

[2-jaffacake-tone]

what can i say i like going to the pub alot

[Anger]

It has to be in one piece and on the rollers to get pub figures Tone

[2-jaffacake-tone]

you bitch lmao

[Skullfudge]

Originally Posted by Anger

It has to be in one piece and on the rollers to get pub figures Tone

pmsl

[Skullfudge]

Yep agree with Big E.

Now Big E is a man who makes the best use of his machine going by the run back from Dunsfold lol. I had tears dripping off my chin when you pulled that stunt at the lights to get in front of Stiggy lmao.

Top man !.

[eureka]

Originally Posted by Skullfudge

Didn't take long to shift your car in parts Steve !! Nice mind you it was all quality parts with very little use so all parts would have been an excellent buy.


Which motor? 2.0 / 2.1 /2.33 / 2.5, many threads like this on the net & many conflicting answers
Different views & comparisons can only be truly answered by driving all four engines in the preferred Classic or Newage.


Eureka made some good points.

Bhp variance are huge subject to a long list but when certain power levels are achieved "driver's confidence" becomes an important & often overlooked issue.
A driver will determine his driving ability/confidence, by reliving the fastest car he has ever driven, which is very often a car with average power to weight. I know of many guys with 350 - 450 who have never & will never drive anywhere near the machines limits.

I can only pass comment on my experiences but 400 bhp in a classic that has been built to cope with the power is an extremely fast machine when driven hard. 450 in the same car (on the limits) is a huge difference.

Some guys are prepared to pay & waste big sums just to be able to say they have big power.

Anyway, just a view on what I have seen & experienced.

im glad you see my point clive ,you being one of the very few people that have the ability to drive the 570hp you have.
i cannot see why some want to get there figures up in the late 4's early 500's but have absolutly no chance of ever driving that car to the power the dyno figures show it to have

having it and piloting it !! 2 very different things .

[SpecB]

Totally agree with all of this - My aim is a fast spooling 400 to 450 with torque to match, Should be similar to 400 in a classic, I'm also planning to get on track a lot more plus some driving training and possibly taking part in the MSV novice race series in a year or so.

I want however to be confident in my engine so am looking for a 500/500 capable engine but only running it at 400 to 450 basically the limits of a MD321T.

[Hongkongfooi]

thats why signing up to the trackday driving thread is job number one!

http://www.southeastscoobies.co.uk/v...ead.php?t=4302

Originally Posted by BlueBugEye

Totally agree with all of this - My aim is a fast spooling 400 to 450 with torque to match, Should be similar to 400 in a classic, I'm also planning to get on track a lot more plus some driving training and possibly taking part in the MSV novice race series in a year or so.

I want however to be confident in my engine so am looking for a 500/500 capable engine but only running it at 400 to 450 basically the limits of a MD321T.

That is exactly what you should be looking at. There is no point pushing above and beyond you or the engines limits. It is just going to end in tears every time. My target was always 400/400 but in a set up that can handle more. Which I have achieved and am truly happy with.

Originally Posted by Hongkongfooi

thats why signing up to the trackday driving thread is job number one!

http://www.southeastscoobies.co.uk/v...ead.php?t=4302

Again you can never learn enough. Get signed up people

With regards to the money thing. It's all too easy to take a swipe at people who don't have the mechanical know how that others do and are able to do the work themselves.

I am firmly in that category and would have no chance of doing the work some people on here can.

So what do people like me do when it all goes tits up with the car? Are we supposed to just say "oh well, nothing I can do about this, I'll just scrap it"? Or do we get professionals to do the work we can't. It's all horses for courses I'm afraid. And by doing this we need to spend money that some others don't need to do.

Trust me when I say it, I wish I knew how to rebuild / mod engines, but I don't. It's that black and white I'm afraid.

[Skullfudge]

Well said Worzel.

I had some stick thrown at me on my Scooby Net P1 thread about the money issue and the fact that it needn't of cost what it did ??

I have the mechanical feel & understanding but do not have the knowledge to build cars or engines. Since owning the P1 I have probably learned more than ever before but I chose to leave the work to the guys that know what they are doing.

The way I look at it Steve is if a mechanic wanted a brochure designed & printed or maybe an inspection pit built into his garage floor they would use the likes of you & I.

Everyone is good at something.

Originally Posted by Skullfudge

Well said Worzel.

I had some stick thrown at me on my Scooby Net P1 thread about the money issue and the fact that it needn't of cost what it did ??

I have the mechanical feel & understanding but do not have the knowledge to build cars or engines. Since owning the P1 I have probably learned more than ever before but I chose to leave the work to the guys that know what they are doing.

The way I look at it Steve is if a mechanic wanted a brochure designed & printed or maybe an inspection pit built into his garage floor they would use the likes of you & I.

Everyone is good at something.

Exactly Clive It does irritate me somewhat that people would give people like you grief for building a car like yours at RCM. I reckon it a case of "Sour Grapes making people Sour Whine" (d'ya like that play on words ) The monster that you have built needed RCM's professional know how, without any doubt at all. Good on you for sticking with it mate

This is why everyone does what they do for a living, because they are good at it. Professionals know 100% what they are doing and you also have a certain amount of comeback if it goes wrong (within reason)

I have the upmost respect for those that can do all of this work on their cars and get something good at the end of it. CJ is a prime example of this, he really is an example of giving it a go and usually coming up trumps. His plitter in Germany shows his stick at it attitude does work. With a bit of tinkering, his mark 2 amended splitter was just about there, by the time we get to mark 3, we'll all want one. I would never had even attempted it in the first place and just bought a bolt on job.