Worzels 2.5 shopping list

Right boys and girls.

As you are probably aware by now, I am just about to go 2.5 due to my engine having a poo and burying itself on the run down to Germany.

I have purchased a 2.5 lump from Nige (cheers mate ) and until he is back from sunning himself in much warmer climbs, I am not sure what the lump comes with apart from uprated bearings I believe?

To that end, I am looking to get a shopping list put together for the build. I have just about scraped together £3000.00 to do this.

I am going to see the garage tomorrow to get some ball park costs from them, so that will give me an idea of what I might have left.

The one thing to take into mind is the fact I am NOT looking for massive power figures, 400bhp is NOT what I'm looking to break or even achieve. If I got 370 / 380bhp I would be happy as larry. So, I am sticking with the Vf34 turbo that I already have, as that is more than adequate. To that end, front mount is another thing I don't want to do either.

So what do I NEED for this build?

The first thing that's been spoken about is Forged Pistons, as Scott said, this might already have them, but we will find out when Nige returns. If it hasn't got them, we'll start there I suppose.

So....... the list starts. Please add your recommendations to the list. Makes, details, prices if possible etc etc.

Cheers in advance

Worzel

1: Forged Pistons -

[BIG"E"]

Are you going for a front mount?

Or is the the top mount adequate for what you want?

[Spongebob2]

you need to decide on a figure now however high or low it may be, will really vary on what you will need, i drew the line at 450 max and tried to build to that, if your not careful your have some bits that are overkill and some out of a cracker

[majorscooby]

Originally Posted by BIG E

Are you going for a front mount?

Or is the the top mount adequate for what you want?

worzels quote= front mount is another thing I don't want to do either.

worz doesnt what to chop his front about i think but i can see what your saying 'E', will the sti top mount be man enough!

[Spongebob2]

Originally Posted by majorscooby

think im right in sayin that 400 is the very max

Originally Posted by spongebob

think im right in sayin that 400 is the very max

I'm not looking to go over 400bhp so top mount will be fine.

All im looking to get is 370 / 380bhp, not after massive figures at all.

[C. J.]

Ver 7 was the last proper forged pistons , even says it in the link posted by scoott
As said before forge pistons ,as lots have had probs over 350 ,but like myself others have not at 400 . its up to you and as i see it for just the cost of pistons at this stage it would be cheaper than having the engine taken back out stripped and borred later on !

Exactly that CJ. I don't ever want to be taking this apart again for sure.

So First proper thing on the list is Forged rods and pistons.

Any recommendations people?

[C. J.]

http://www.lateralperformance.co.uk/

Cheers for the link Chris!


[img]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/worzelg/650.jpg[/img]

Power Enterprise 650cc New Age Top Feed injector set
Power Enterprise are well respected for producing a quality product range, and they are probably best known for their range of quality injectors. ... ... [more]

Price: £475.00 + vat @ 15




[img]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/worzelg/Piston20dish202_35lt20202_5lt.jpg[/img]

Lateral/Wiseco Custom EJ257 2.5lt 99.5mm Forged Piston Kit With Rings, & Up Rated Pins
[more]


Price: £575.00 + vat @ 15

[C. J.]

You should be fine on pinks till 410/420bhp with a good fuel reg like fuel lab or sx

[Scott.T]

360-380 on the 2.5 and the VF35 will be possible on the TMIC.
Forged pistons IMHO are overkill on that engine, considering the required power and with the relativley small VF35 Turbo.

When you consider what you are paying for the short engine compared to £575+VAT for the pistons it's making it a much more expensive build.
Plus you need to factor in that Vince will need to strip the block to replace the pistons, which may already be forged (need to check with Nige and the guy that built it, as he will be able to confirm).
Plus if you are cracking open the block again for the forged pistons then why not go for new rods aswell.....

Just don't get carried away if all you want is 380BHP.
A few people have gone 400-450BHP and wished they had stayed with a more practical and driveable 350BHP.

Get confirmation from Nige on the build then speak to Mark at Lateral expaining your requirements.
He's a practical guy and won't guide you down the route which best lines his pockets, or a route dictated by forum junkies that know all the names of the latest trick bits that score points on the pub-bull-o-meter.

Mark will also confirm that the STi Pinks are up to the job, expecially with a £200 Fuelab Pressure Reg, as I had exact the same conversation with him a few weeks back regarding Nige's car running the much bigger 20G.

As CJ and myself will tell you, you don't need to go mad to get good power.
I'm running 120BHP over stock with what amounts to a relativley small turbo, tmic, decat and a remap. I expect to get to 350BHP if I change the turbo and mess with the fuelling.

P.S You need to be very carefull with the choice of forged pistons and there size. Forged do have a tendancy to rattle like bucket of pebbles until the engine is warm. Sounding like very bad piston slap (which is actually what it is, until they have warmed and expanded).
I have heard some real bad cases and it would P-I-S-S me right off after spending all that dosh. I would want a garuntee that this wasn't going to happen, and it can be made so if matched and chosen wisley.

[C. J.]

When speaking to mark he as always said to me to change the pistons to forged . Think steve is thinking about more power possible next year

From a vid i saw of someone changing pistons on a scoob engine its done with out splitting the block , will have a look for it .

[Anger]

The pistons that rattle are normally othersized items ive found, 2.1 engines are normally very loud on start up

Thanks for all of your input, it's fantastic help guys.

I think as you say Scott, waiting for Nige to get back is important.

I do want to do it right though, the last thing I want to do is go back in to do anything. I would rather pay the money now and get good forged products and have the scope to do more in the future possibly.

In a years time, I might want to go front mount for instance with a bigger turbo. At this time, I don't.

But I also said I wasn't going to go 2.5 and have.

[Spongebob2]

got weiseco's in my 2.5 which are meant to be really noisey from cold, well, not really no different to any cold engine IMO, and its gone after bout a min anyway, dont need to split the block, took me bout an hour to change them and thats only cause i kept dropping the clips inside the block (no sump so ok) was assured by AndyF that standard 2.5 rods and bearings are good to about 480 ish as long as you keep the 7k rev limit for the rods, but with the right turbo and torque from the 2.5 that shouldnt be a problem

[2-jaffacake-tone]

my advice steve, set your self a target, and keep to it. from what i have understood standard ej257 rods and pistons are fine for 400bhp so leave them if thats your limit.
if you do get pistons i would let the engine builder source them i would recomend pennin subaru (chy) he is amazing! easy guy to talk to,he will explane things nice and easy and work with your budget.

you will need if a bare engine
oil modine+filter
oil pump
cambelt+tensoner/guides if ness
gasket set
head gaskets (1.6mm)
head bolts uprated (APR)
oil + antifreeze

also worth looking at the clutch wile its all apart.

also if you plan on useing your 2.0 heads you will need to have the heads mechend to suit the combustion chamber of the 2.5 bore.

(dont full in the trap of while that is being done i will do that and this and them ect as it gets very costly very quick!)


good luck!

Brilliant stuff guys. The advice is priceless.

I am 99% certain that I dont want to go over 400bhp.

My only fear is, if in 18 months time or so, I then decide to push it a little further I will be swearing at myself for not doing what I could now. It's a real bugger to be honest.

I also know that going over the magic 400bhp brings problems that someone with my VERY limited mechanical knowledge will struggle to comprehend and be able to cope with.

Putting that last bit in writing really has just brought it home a little bit I am venturing into very uncharted waters for me, if I try to go big just for the sake of it. I think I have maybe been eating too much cheese late at night and dreaming too much. The decision is made. Once and for final.

I will be staying UNDER 400bhp, as per my original statement. 370 / 380 + good torque figures will do me very nicely thank you. The one thing I do want to do though is make it as bullet proof as possible. So people, please guide me as to the bits I need for a bullet proof 2.5 with the figures I just quoted.

Many many thanks guys!

[C. J.]

pistons are a must ring and speak to mark

Agreed

[2-jaffacake-tone]

turbo wise td05 20g are amazing on a 2.5.

[Scott.T]

A concern I have is that you have doen 2 sets of big ends.
It's a Bob map so should be pretty safe, so you have to ask the question as to why.

You don't want to be doing it again if you can help it, but very difficult to tell if anything on the car may be causing it i.e MAF, Cam or Crank sensors.

I went in to see Vince yesterday. He is not convinced that it is the big end gone.

I think someone said it when we pulled over too, but he thinks it might be a tappit problem (forgive the spelling if it's wrong), he said that he started it up and left it running for a while and the noise started to get less and less. He started when I was there yesterday and it sounded better than it did by a long way.

Whichever way it goes, I want to carry on with the project now.

How could I find out if it were any of the things you mentioned Scott. I have to admit the first one might have been my fault , but the second one was definitely not, never been into the red with it, warning set at 6200, all the fluids were at good levels, just had a service, and I didn't really go nuts on the drive down. I had a couple of small blats in it but nothing close to the red, the quickest I went was 140 on the de-restricted section and that was one up. Martyn had 150 3 up, Big E had 155 4up.

In the words of Toyah Wilcox...... It'th a mysthhhhawee!

[Scott.T]

I would wait until Vince has had a good look before you jump to too many rash desicions.

It may be tappets or, as mentioned out in germany, it may be the cam belt tension has gone soft.
this makes a nasty knock as the plunger bounces of it's resting point due to the self priming plunger oil seal failing.

Mine done this a while back and would give a nasty knock noise on start up as it bounced.
Vince swapped it for a new one that I provided when I had the belt done.

I have another new one on the shelf ready to fit when the belt next gets changed as they can often fail after a cam belt change. The plubger has to be compressed and a pin insterted to old it, then when re-fitted the pin is removed to allow the plunger to reposition itself. if not done slowley and vertically the pil seal can be damaged and then after a while give the above symptons.

it could be as cheap as £160 for a new tensioner plus labour to fit new belt and/or recheck belt has not jumped a tooth.
Vince has also found in the past broken cambelt pullies or guides that also sound like big end knock.

Heres hoping then!

Might be getting a refund from Nige!

[SUBARMAN]

If you are continuing with the build, and may be persuaded to go above 400, bear in mind that the fasteners supplied with the "Wagon Conversion Kit" will need uprating, as the boffins have found that the conversion unit will seperate from the main body of the vehicle when pushing upwards of 400 bhp.

[BIG"E"]

Originally Posted by worzel

I had a couple of small blats in it but nothing close to the red, the quickest I went was 140 on the de-restricted section and that was one up. Martyn had 150 3 up, Big E had 155 4up.

157

Actually.

Well according to my sat nav.

[Steve_PPP]

good effort Big E

[BIG"E"]

Originally Posted by Steve_PPP

good effort Big E

She had more but the SPEED LIMITER does work.

[Scott.T]

[quote=BIG E]

Originally Posted by "Steve_PPP":2jged5yw

good effort Big E

She had more but the SPEED LIMITER does work. [/quote:2jged5yw]

Sat Nav is pretty acurate then as Speed Limiter Fuel Cut on the WR1 Map kicks in at 158mph then comes off at 155mph.

Def sounded ends to me.
Happy days if it is not mate

I can only hope

If it's not ends and the repair is cheaper than the previous expected (which it bleedin ought to be) then the brake upgrade will be back on and maybe 3" full decat and remap.

If the ends are fooked, then ithe 2.5 project is all systems go. With forged rods and pistons (Overkill, yes more than likely but safe as houses) new injectors, maybe a better turbo & maybe 3" full decat. Then a map tweek.

Either way I'm out of pocket!

[Greig]

hello did you manage to get your car sorted? I have just had the same problem but mine is defo the big ends as the engine is now lying in pieces in the garage!! Just trying to cost out what to do with it now??

Originally Posted by worzel

Heres hoping then!

Might be getting a refund from Nige!

You can have your money back mate not a problem. No matter what the outcome is Steve i would still have the 2.5 convertion. On some of the vid's Joe took at the ring you can see me gaining & passing 911's i made mincemeet of M3's before & after 100mph the torque factor is unreal & remmember Scott had to wind it back as i maxed out the bloody pinks. Mine is an oe 2.5 STI bottom end more than happy running 400bhp reliable & that engine was bought from Mark @ Latterall for more than double the price i was charging your good self. The engine you have bought from me is a semi closed deck bock with A.R.P race bearings. The guy who built this short block has built many 2.5's dazdavies he is renowned for his builds. Up to 400bhp with oe pistons not a problem. If it was i would have put forged pistons in mine . Daz has even run one producing 450bhp + for over two years on oe pistons with no probs & it was run hard. If you intend to keep your oe turbo you wont need forged. If you intend to go 20g or similar then you will end up with a big grin on your face mate. Have a chat with Tony he knows of daz & will put you right otherwise overkill will empty your pockets. P.S your oe STI top mount is good for 400bhp + A.F said so.

Whats the news mate?

[C. J.]

Originally Posted by Nige

You can have your money back mate not a problem. No matter what the outcome is Steve i would still have the 2.5 convertion. On some of the vid's Joe took at the ring you can see me gaining & passing 911's i made mincemeet of M3's before & after 100mph the torque factor is unreal & remmember Scott had to wind it back as i maxed out the bloody pinks. Mine is an oe 2.5 STI bottom end more than happy running 400bhp reliable & that engine was bought from Mark @ Latterall for more than double the price i was charging your good self. The engine you have bought from me is a semi closed deck bock with A.R.P race bearings. The guy who built this short block has built many 2.5's dazdavies he is renowned for his builds. Up to 400bhp with oe pistons not a problem. If it was i would have put forged pistons in mine . Daz has even run one producing 450bhp + for over two years on oe pistons with no probs & it was run hard. If you intend to keep your oe turbo you wont need forged. If you intend to go 20g or similar then you will end up with a big grin on your face mate. Have a chat with Tony he knows of daz & will put you right otherwise overkill will empty your pockets. P.S your oe STI top mount is good for 400bhp + A.F said so.

Dyney got 400bhp tuesday on a newage WRX top mount and 411lbs on a hot day so would think its possible to see 420 to 430 on a sti one with agood mapp
And that was at niges fav rollers

[Scott.T]

Quote from DazDavies re : Big End Failure

"Most often cause of bearing failure is oil starvation usually caused by the standard OEM Oil pump pressure relief valve sticking. This is because the piston on the oil pump has a 10mm groove in and can become prone to foriegn debris.

One of the best ways to prevent this is to run the modified oil pump from RCMS this has the piston in the pump replaced for a smooth non grooved item.

I had bottom end failure without one an have never had it with one. This is with 4 different scoobies and about 100K miles "

"Det will destroy pistons result in noticeable loss of power long before bearings get damaged. I had an engine failure due to severe det. One piston and bore got wrecked. The bearings were not that old and damned expensive (RCMS WRC items) so I reused them on the rebuild. They have been in the engine since and are still going strong.

If bearings are damaged and pistons are OK the cause of bearing failure will NOT be detonation! "

No news yet. I think Nige has suffered Vinces "relaxed" timings too and knows what I'm going through

If it was my daily drive I would be doing my crunchies!

Hopefully, when I call him tomorrow he will have stripped it down and will be able to give me the news.

I have to admit, having so much time to think about it (which is getting expensive ) I might as well go for it no matter what. I keep thinking back to the drive home from Adenau with Nige, the night you lads stayed out all night. His car felt so bloody sorted it was untrue, that grunt and feel with the way my car is set up with suspension will be pretty bloody good.

Nige, are you around on Saturday morning? I want to pop down and pay the balance of the engine.

Here we go boys, another 2.5 on the way.

Can someone just tell Vince that japbash is coming soon

Scott, that's an interesting read.

What sort of money are we talking for said pump?

[iain1502]

Originally Posted by worzel

No news yet. I think Nige has suffered Vinces "relaxed" timings too and knows what I'm going through

If it was my daily drive I would be doing my crunchies!

Hopefully, when I call him tomorrow he will have stripped it down and will be able to give me the news.

I have to admit, having so much time to think about it (which is getting expensive ) I might as well go for it no matter what. I keep thinking back to the drive home from Adenau with Nige, the night you lads stayed out all night. His car felt so bloody sorted it was untrue, that grunt and feel with the way my car is set up with suspension will be pretty bloody good.

Nige, are you around on Saturday morning? I want to pop down and pay the balance of the engine.

Here we go boys, another 2.5 on the way.

Can someone just tell Vince that japbash is coming soon

Nige's car felt sorted on the way there with 5 of us in it, pulling like a train

Originally Posted by worzel

Scott, that's an interesting read.

What sort of money are we talking for said pump?

http://www.rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/s ... sLevel=180

I have the RCM pump + RCM head gaskets 1.6mm. All top gear.

Thats a no brainer then. Another thing to add to the list

So the list so far:

RCM Oil Pump
RCM Gaskets
Forged Pistons
650 Injectors
TD05 20g Turbo

So the list so far:

RCM Oil Pump
RCM Gaskets
Forged Pistons
650 Injectors
TD05 20g Turbo

Honestly Laura all this for 100 quid

Originally Posted by Crowman

So the list so far:

RCM Oil Pump
RCM Gaskets
Forged Pistons
650 Injectors
TD05 20g Turbo

Honestly Laura all this for 100 quid

I know just a little bit to spend. But might as well do it properly.

[majorscooby]

Originally Posted by worzel

I know just a little bit to spend. But might as well do it properly.

Going three inch decat then..... cough cough

[C. J.]

Originally Posted by majorscooby

Going three inch decat then..... cough cough

a must and would get penine to do the engine as he has a secret that is keeping him ahead of the others, plus his very well priced
Speak to dyney shy has just done his and think tony is getting them to do his and mine will be going to him when i get a block have avacs and high flow pump now

If funds allow I will be going 3" decat

[eureka]

steve
i have some bitz coming off my car very soon to save you some money (injectors 650 pe, exhaust, boost controller.)
i would recommend the,
rcm pump
cosworth rods, pistons
cosworth gaskets

if staying below 400 3" system will be pointless now (i have one you can buy)
i have heard of cars running over 450 on oe topmount (newage)