rolling road in st leonards

[ralliart didz]

wots with the picture of the bogs.

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Should be interesting to see where it is power wise at the moment.

Book power for the PPP and according to the Prodrive sticker on the door is 316BHP.
It's boosting bang on what's defined in the boost target map, fuelling is bang on and ignition timing is running full IAM, so the theory say's it should be close....

Bum-Dyno also thinks it's about 300-320BHP, not as quick as my classic (335BHP) due to being down a bit on power and up a bit in weight, but it is acceptable power rather then under-powered at the moment.

Road dyno puts it at about 305BHP, but the test road is very slightly up-hill and road dyno's are very subjective and dependant very much on the parameters configured.

Will be interesting to see what it makes and if I think the rollers are accurate.

[BIG"E"]

Originally Posted by didznotturbo

wots with the picture of the bogs.

SilverSurfer can often be found a round the bogs.

[Jolly Green Monster]

I dont really want to get into a/the debate but do feel charlies has got a bit of a hard time unecessarily or rather credit has not been given for what it does do.

I have used and do use a lot of dynos all over the country and europe and I dont know of anyone else that takes the time and effort to try and get the correct figures from a car.
I dont know anyone else that is on it as much to stop and get out and adjust strapping or sense when there is something not right.
I can concerntrate on mapping a car and not have to be concerned with anything other than doing so. The fan is very good, the wideband always works, the boost monitoring accurate.
I suspect charlie has dyno'd more cars than most and he has taught a number of people how to operate their dyno.

Yes the loo may not be the best (especially if we have been for a curry the night before) but if the loo was plush and smelt of roses but the dyno operation was as crap as the loo smells would you be happy?

I travel 80miles and 1.5hours to use his dyno for mapping several times most weeks by choice, there are nearer ones, I have tried them and I wouldnt take my car their for a powerrun let alone map a customers car, no I wont name names either.

I am there for the next two days in fact
Simon

[Anger]

See you tomorrow Simon

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

I dont really want to get into a/the debate but do feel charlies has got a bit of a hard time unecessarily or rather credit has not been given for what it does do.

I have used and do use a lot of dynos all over the country and europe and I dont know of anyone else that takes the time and effort to try and get the correct figures from a car.
I dont know anyone else that is on it as much to stop and get out and adjust strapping or sense when there is something not right.
I can concerntrate on mapping a car and not have to be concerned with anything other than doing so. The fan is very good, the wideband always works, the boost monitoring accurate.
I suspect charlie has dyno'd more cars than most and he has taught a number of people how to operate their dyno.

Yes the loo may not be the best (especially if we have been for a curry the night before) but if the loo was plush and smelt of roses but the dyno operation was as crap as the loo smells would you be happy?

I travel 80miles and 1.5hours to use his dyno for mapping several times most weeks by choice, there are nearer ones, I have tried them and I wouldnt take my car their for a powerrun let alone map a customers car, no I wont name names either.

I am there for the next two days in fact
Simon

Simon,

I don't think this thread was ever a dig at charlie, just an announcement that for those local there 'MAY' be a suitable rolling road.

The thing about the loo just kinda got carried away........

[SpecB]

I'm about to dust off the old Blue one and head up to Charlie's in a bit - yes it could be cleaner but the dyno is spot on and on the times I've just had a 'power run' even without Simon's presence Charlie has made comments about the setup/running of the car that have always proved to be accurate when further investigated. There is little substitute for experience and to be fair I'd say Charlie's knowledge of cars, in particular Subaru's goes far further than your average Dyno Operator - plus one phone call and you have either Simon, Pats or another Knowledgeable chap on the end of the phone for advice!

[Scottie :)]

Wasnt this thread only about a local dyno and checking it out?

Simon, I agree 100% with what Scott says, this thread was never a dig at Charlie, in fact it brought lots of members on to say how happy they are with his services and how they wouldn't change, myself included.

The bog thing is kind of tongue in cheek, it has legendary status as being an ex breeding ground for Saddam Hussein's chemical warfare programme.

Yes, I and many others use Charlie & Yourself and will continue to do so, because we like what we get as a package up there. This RR is just an alternative for people who live further South and East in the region. It has to be worth a look

Originally Posted by worzel

Simon, I agree 100% with what Scott says, this thread was never a dig at Charlie, in fact it brought lots of members on to say how happy they are with his services and how they wouldn't change, myself included.

The bog thing is kind of tongue in cheek, it has legendary status as being an ex breeding ground for Saddam Hussein's chemical warfare programme.

Yes, I and many others use Charlie & Yourself and will continue to do so, because we like what we get as a package up there. This RR is just an alternative for people who live further South and East in the region. It has to be worth a look

The only way any of us know if anything is any good or not, is for someone to try it think Scott knows enough to make a valued judgement too

[bigemp]

Just have a poo and a wee before you leave home then it won't matter about the bloody toilet,I have never put one of my cars on a rolling road but would rather drive a bit more to go to someone who is the best,regardless of the bogs but great that Scott is trying out a new company which is local to him and also closer to me as well as wanna check mine out shortly, so always nice to have options

[Anger]

Paul said he wouldnt map a car there.... Says enough for me

[SpecB]

Have to say that the place has had a bit of a spruce up based on todays experience so far!

Maybe someone has passed on the message

I was going to pop in today, but the M25 was fooked. 2 hours to get to Guildford instead of the usual 1 hour

Hows Angers car doing?

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by Nige

Hows Angers car doing?

Running map happenning at some point today

Did you have problems getting there today Simon?

At 10.45am It was solid from Just after M23 - Junction 10, and looking chocka block there after too

[Jolly Green Monster]

Yes lucky I left early

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by BlueBugEye

Have to say that the place has had a bit of a spruce up based on todays experience so far!

Yep it even still smells good in the loo here after mr gimp has visited!!!!

Simon

Ps: I dont normally post from in the loo honest

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

Yep it even still smells good in the loo here after mr gimp has visited!!!!

Simon

Ps: I dont normally post from in the loo honest

PMSL

This is turning into "Bog Gate"

[Scott.T]

Sorry guy's didn't look in the loo's.
But they are in the main reception area for the public to use, so they may be a tad cleaner then Charlies

In all seriousness, spent an hour or so with Chris of Chris Langley's with the car on the rollers. A very nice guy who is clearly keen to get the best out of his new rolling road aquisition.

The rollers are similar to that used in the past by Power Engineering and use the coast down to caluclate the transmission loss. I beleive they are MAHA. OK this is older technology to the more recent rollers like Dyno Dynamics or more modern MAHA, but they are well proven.
Having used Power Engineering many times with my old Ford's I'm happy to use them again, especially as they are only 1.5 miles away.

Chris bought this equipment 2nd hand and has spent several months setting it all up. It has primarily been bought for his race car preparation, which is a RallyCross Cossie running Pectel Management and some kind of Westfield/Caterham thing.
He is willing to open it up for RR shoot out days, one-off rolling road dyno runs (book through the office), or offers to operate the rollers if the customer wants to map his own car.

He doesn't appear to have the wealth of experience with mapping modern engine management systems on multiple vehicle platforms, that some venue's have, but having only just set-up the rollers for the reasons above I wouldn't expect him too.

Bottom line is that the rollers appear to work, he's a nice chap trying hard to grow his business, so I for one will support him and use him where possible.

A number of rolling roads (SRR excluded) make the customer uncomfortable and don't listen to what the customer has to say, obviously because they know best....believe me I know as have visited a few over the years. Chris does not do this, he listened to what I had to say and even took some of my suggestions on board.

OK results.......
Car :
STi Hawkeye 2007 PPP
Modifications :
K&N Panel Filter
2.75" CatBack System
2.5" TSL Rear Box
Un-modified Prodrive PPP ECU

338BHP / 326lbft
Several runs where done making slight variations to the applied load of the rollers which made slight variations in result. We settled on the above after lowering the load didn't seem to drop the power figure much further.

I'm prepared to accept that is may be a little high by about 5%. But then again I have heard that the STi Hawkeye OE figures can be a little conservative (316BHP for PPP, without filter or exhaust mods). Either way it's a benchmark for me to improve upon.

To help confirm that the car was being loaded up correctly I logged all the runs on the laptop and Target Boost, AFR, WGDC, Engine Load and Ignition timing all hitting pretty much spot on in accordance with it's respective map settings (Key ones being Target Boost and Engine Load).

I then performed the same out on the real road and the logs where very similar to that captured on the RR. So happy it is all setup correct.

I will put up a graph on 'MY Urban Grey STi' thread once scanned.

[Scooby_Greg]

Nice write up Scott

[Scottie :)]

Nice one scott.

What did Chris want £ wise Scott. Pm me please.

[scooberblue]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

I dont really want to get into a/the debate but do feel charlies has got a bit of a hard time unecessarily or rather credit has not been given for what it does do.

I have used and do use a lot of dynos all over the country and europe and I dont know of anyone else that takes the time and effort to try and get the correct figures from a car.
I dont know anyone else that is on it as much to stop and get out and adjust strapping or sense when there is something not right.
I can concerntrate on mapping a car and not have to be concerned with anything other than doing so. The fan is very good, the wideband always works, the boost monitoring accurate.
I suspect charlie has dyno'd more cars than most and he has taught a number of people how to operate their dyno.

Yes the loo may not be the best (especially if we have been for a curry the night before) but if the loo was plush and smelt of roses but the dyno operation was as crap as the loo smells would you be happy?

I travel 80miles and 1.5hours to use his dyno for mapping several times most weeks by choice, there are nearer ones, I have tried them and I wouldnt take my car their for a powerrun let alone map a customers car, no I wont name names either.

I am there for the next two days in fact
Simon

as said very good right up scott.

when i started this thread it was only because i had found somewere local
(10 min from my house rather than 2hour) that had a 4 wheel dyno nothing was ment as a dig to charlie and i dont no were that came from!

[scooby doo]

Good write up scott, even if its 5% out like you say it may well be but as long as you go back there for each run then you can see between the gains correctly.

[Anger]

So over reads just the same as Power engineerings always did

My Standard apart from decatt My99 made 257bhp there

[simba]

good read scott and would be happy to use them for sure

[Anger]

As Paul and Tone said the fans were small.... What did you think of them Scott ?

Good write up Scott

I reckon it's well worth an RR day. I would come along for a spy at the place and a day out, but I would still stick for now with Charlie, just because as previously stated I like the package I get with Simon & Charlie.

It's a great find though, so happy days

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Anger

As Paul and Tone said the fans were small.... What did you think of them Scott ?

It's more of a blower then a fan, a different concept to the big caged fan used at SRR. Certainly very noisey and certainly shifts some air.
When the car went on the rollers it was soaking wet as it was raining outside.
As soon as the blower came on the water just flew off quite dramatically, I would say equivelent to doing 80-100mph. The water certainly cleared alot quicker then it does when driving at 60mph.

Again this looked very similar to what PE used to use. The more I think about it the more it seems possible that it is PE's old equipment.
The last time I looked into/read about PE I think they were moving premises and investing in new equipment.

I should of really asked Chris, I will try to next time I see him.

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Anger

So over reads just the same as Power engineerings always did

My Standard apart from decatt My99 made 257bhp there

250(ish) seemed to be the figure most UK with decat seemed to hit with a decat and filter, back in the day when 300 was the thing of dreams.

IIRC my old classic recorded 309BHP at PE, with a bit of map tweak with a bit leaning out and a touch more boost (about 0.1bar) it hit 314BHP at SRR the1st time I went up there.

[Scott.T]

2 Runs, 2 plots at 2 different RR settings

338.2BHP / 326.5lbft


337.8BHP / 323.8lbft


As mentioned above I logged a few runs out on the road.
putting these into the road Dyno supplied with the logging application gives very similar results to the above.

Normally road dyno's are very subjective and dependant on the parameters entered i.e you can tweak them to give the figure you want to see.
I initially thought the road dyno was coming in about 30BHP down on the above with the default settings for the STi. 'BUT' found that the 2005-2007 STi has a different final Drive ratio to the earlier 6-Speeds. Once this was entered correctley the values from the Road Dyno are very close to the Rolling Road.

I will post the Road dyno plots later

Nice going Scott, it looks like you have found a bit of a gem there

[Jolly Green Monster]

Sorry but if you turned up with a mapped car he would have no idea what settings to use, if someone were mapping on such a dyno they can trn it down run the car and then map it and turn it up. Which is why dyno dynamics works far better as you know or any operator knows to run a 4x4 car is shoot44 mode. The only variables are the air and intake temps and barometric pressure, which if far out it is obvious and they are print on the dyno dynamics printout and how the car is strapped.

Maha measure the drive train losses but reproduce the at the wheels figures from some strange calc that makes them meaningless. Yes it records the actual losses however if the brakes are binding the tiniest amount it is recorded and massively skews the results.

The dyno dynamics uses 22% losses iirc and although one could argue this is less accurate it is consistent and the variance between operators less.

They often read higher than dyno dynamics as does power engineerings old rollers which is now owned by ecutek and has a temp controlled sound proofed cell for development work now.

It would be interesting to compare data from there but the fact there is no standard settings worries me. Maybe a cheap way to gain power though. Worzel best be ready to order more numbers for the back of the car :d

Simon

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

Worzel best be ready to order more numbers for the back of the car :d

Simon

Oi, I resemble that remark

Another reason I didn't get Angers turbo in the end, getting fed up with giving Halfrauds all that money for new numbers

It would be interesting if you were to check it out personally Simon if you were down that way? Because a couple of your comments mean he could benefit from putting in the right direction?

As stated before, I will keep going to Charlie, I love the abuse, red hot pizza, arse killing curries and the bog of doom too much to move away

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

Sorry but if you turned up with a mapped car he would have no idea what settings to use, if someone were mapping on such a dyno they can trn it down run the car and then map it and turn it up. Which is why dyno dynamics works far better as you know or any operator knows to run a 4x4 car is shoot44 mode.

I wonder if there is a similar mode for the MAHA.
From this I read that when you map on the rollers you use a different setting to when you do a shoot out, is that correct ? and what are the reasons ?

I may try and get a manual for the MAHA, as you appear to be able to download from their website once registered.

[Scooby_Greg]

Originally Posted by worzel

As stated before, I will keep going to Charlie, I love the abuse, red hot pizza, arse killing curries and the bog of doom too much to move away

+1. SRR not too far for me either!

Interesting reading this thread.
Always a good debate to be had on rolling roads

I always took my cars to power engineering, reason being they were well renowned in the cossie days. Remember getting a -31 actuator and an Ahmed bajoo chip for my saph. It made 280bhp and I was so impressed, how things have moved on

The prototype is soon to have a RCM decat and then will be booked into SRR with Simon and Charlie.
My classic has not missed a beat since JGM mapped it

Had forgoton just how suffocated a scoob feels with the cats in place . Not pleasant .

[Lucky]

[QUOTE Had forgoton just how suffocated a scoob feels with the cats in place . Not pleasant .[/QUOTE]


Tell me about it

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

I wonder if there is a similar mode for the MAHA.
From this I read that when you map on the rollers you use a different setting to when you do a shoot out, is that correct ? and what are the reasons ?

I may try and get a manual for the MAHA, as you appear to be able to download from their website once registered.

no mate.. there are varying modes you can use on the dyno dynamics and various loads but not in a shoot44 pull etc..

I normally map in shoot44.. I dont like holding turbo cars at a load point as the heat is very quick to build. Do so occasionally to fault find or if in particular there would appear to be something to be gained playing with vvt settings for example but have to be very careful with heat.

what I meant was and I wasnt insinuating they were in st leonards as they dont map but you can alter the before and after by applying different calibration settings on the maha.

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by Crowman

Interesting reading this thread.
Always a good debate to be had on rolling roads

I always took my cars to power engineering, reason being they were well renowned in the cossie days. Remember getting a -31 actuator and an Ahmed bajoo chip for my saph. It made 280bhp and I was so impressed, how things have moved on

The prototype is soon to have a RCM decat and then will be booked into SRR with Simon and Charlie.
My classic has not missed a beat since JGM mapped it

Had forgoton just how suffocated a scoob feels with the cats in place . Not pleasant .

very much looking forward to seeing that car

I still think your other classic is the best well looked after original early car I have seen in a long long while

[Scott.T]

Originally Posted by Jolly Green Monster

what I meant was and I wasnt insinuating they were in st leonards as they dont map but you can alter the before and after by applying different calibration settings on the maha.

Yeh agree that could easily be done and is probably done at some venues.
I saw the direct result of that when the rollers were set to a load of 70. Power rose to near 350BHP.
It was at that point I said nah!!! somethings not right there, we dropped it to 40, recorded 338, then dropped it a further to 30 and still recorded 337, so settled on that as the decrease had made very little difference.

He was told by the person he bought the RR off that low power 2WD should be on a low setting and higher power cars a higher setting.
The load is used not only to calculate the torque required to spin the rollers but to try and maintain a linear increase in rev/power and prevent the car running through the rev range too fast.

[Scott.T]

This is my Road Dyno ATW plot taken from a log 15 mins after the RR run.
No tweaking to the parameters have been made other then ensuring the correct gear ratio's, weight and wheel/tyre combination.

The road dyno gives a Power Figure of 243BHP, the Rolling road plot a ATW power figure of approx 255BHP, so not a million mile away.

[scoobycoops]

Charlie is da man
SSR rocks

[scoobycoops]

Jgm roooooocks

[scoobycoops]

This Is an awesome thread.
The only way to be confident is have as large a number of cars do runs at both sites ant compare the deviations . its a simple standards deviation analysis . Bell curve and all that. simples

[Scottie :)]

Scott do you have any pricing info just for a power run? Pm if u want

Cheers mate

[Jolly Green Monster]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer

Yeh agree that could easily be done and is probably done at some venues.
I saw the direct result of that when the rollers were set to a load of 70. Power rose to near 350BHP.
It was at that point I said nah!!! somethings not right there, we dropped it to 40, recorded 338, then dropped it a further to 30 and still recorded 337, so settled on that as the decrease had made very little difference.

He was told by the person he bought the RR off that low power 2WD should be on a low setting and higher power cars a higher setting.
The load is used not only to calculate the torque required to spin the rollers but to try and maintain a linear increase in rev/power and prevent the car running through the rev range too fast.

How do you know its a high power car or how high powered before you run it?

If 40 load or what ever it was seems correct for your car for example and we all turn up for a powerrun, others with 400+ are going to over read?

I dont think there is the same setting on the maha.

Dastek takes a reading at a set rpm and load and measures the gearing at that point and seems fairly accurate.

Simon

This is such a minefield by the look of things.

I never though of Charlie as some kind of boffin before, but maybe I should!

Charlie =